Anonymous Idiot
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- My take on the AI. AI should still exist, for the obvious reasons (some things are only going to be said AI), but it should cost karma (I suggest 5 karma per AI post), and there should be a minimum karma level for AI (Say ten. Not too high, but high enough to make creating endless new sockpuppets worth while.) This way, it's still available when people need it, but we create a drag on regular AI posters that should burn their karma out pretty rapidly. I think this is a reasonable compromise between the "No AI" and "AI All The Time" camps. I think most of us agree that the rampant and easy use of AI has become a problem in the community.
--Captain Liberal
- I disagree. Enabling folks to post randomly is a good thing. Although I did not use AI at all, I did find quite a few AI posts to be interesting or informative. I do agree that the endless sockpuppets are obnoxious. But we should be able to weed that out by IP address.--Thalia 20:43, 11 June 2006 (PDT)
- AI serves a purpose. I've used it a time or 3 to post things that I wouldn't have been free to say even under a pseudonym. Certainly our own little Troll Wars got real old, but ditching AI entirely raises a barrier to entry... and one thing we desperately need is new blood. I think the 1 point downmod for AIs and a bit of filtering would solve most of the problem. Possibly improve filters to allow for different filter levels for AI and regular users so you could only see AI comments that get upmods (assuming such split filtrs would be feasile, I have no idea what would be involved). --A. H. Cretin 21:23, 11 June 2006 (PDT)
- I agree with Thalia. The AI is fundamental to plastic/neue plastic. The problem is not so much the ignorant AI comments, but how some people react to them. Given AI coments start at 0, and newbies can't see down to 0, why people waste karma down-modding AIs when they could be up-modding newbies is totally beyond me. -- tomc
- Per Captain Liberal's suggestion: Any significant Karma hit from AI posting renders the AI traceable. Just correlate the writing style and five-point karma drops...
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- Just add a checkbox to the filter settings that allows you to block AI posts under filter level +1, or alternatively just under 1. Or just add the ability to set a different filter level for AI than for registered posts. Requiring "karma" to post AI defeats the purpose and creates an additional barrier to entry for new users who want to lurk and participate a little bit before they join. The last thing we should be considering is making it more difficult for people to contribute. Trolls need to be dealt with with a combination of filtering and MATURITY. Users who feel the need to engage & respond to trolls are a much bigger problem then the trolls themselves, and there's no technical fix for that. Filtering out bad content should be the responsibility of the community via moderation, after it's submitted. No censorship. -marduk
- I'm also in favor of the AI. It lowers the requirements of participation for new users - I can't remember how many times I've attempted to post on a forum only to find that anonymous access is disabled, and I just move on because registering can be a pain in the ass and who knows how long it'll take for those stupid validation emails to show up in my inbox. Re: signal-to-noise ratio, if an account's score threshold was set properly a lot of the crap simply wouldn't show up. I don't remember if this was possible on the old Plastic, but if we're going to continue scoring posts in half-point increments then I'd like to see that reflected in the comment filter option. If my threshold was set to -0.5 then I could see posts that were unfairly dinged, yet still be able to avoid any garbage modded down to -1 (ditto whole-point increments, and comment scores of -1 and -2). --xbonesGT
- So drop the cost of AI posting. Any cost, even a .5 cost will create a drag on AI posting, which is what we want. So long as AI posting is free, there's nothing to stop anyone from filling the place with AI troll posts. What a cost does is make it difficult for anyone to primarily post in AI without eventually losing the ability to do so. It creates a self-correcting mechanism for out of control AI posting, without removing the ability to post AI, which I agree is necessary. -- CaptainLiberal
- NO! If there's a cost to AI posts you have to register to post which is exactly what you want to aviod. - marduk
- I would never have joined plastic if I hadn't been able to post AI before deciding to get an account. - MrPeregrination
- With the latest version of slash, you can preset moderation levels for anonymous comments: I keep mine at -6 and read at +2, thus guaranteeing that I will never see one. However, if what I am seeing on waitingforplastic is indicative of what the AI has degenerated to after I started blocking it, I say kill it. Let the trolls find another playground. -AdipicAcid
- Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure that having a karma hit per AI post for a logged-in user would work very well. If a user was really determined to troll, couldn't they avoid the penalty just by logging out and clearing their browser cookie before posting? Sure, we could also track karma by IP address but that gets ugly on the server side and causes problems for people who share IP addresses (most dialup users, and some folks behind certain routers). -- xbonesGT
- You can't legislate ugliness, but you can score it. - - tomc
- I'm not averse to instituting some sort of Anonymous Visitor for new users, because it's not new users using AI to wage war across threads. That said, all those same posts will just move to AV instead of AI. At which point we're right back where we started, which is attempting to moderate out noise, which simply doesn't work. It's open to abuse from anyone who gan get together enough mod points and accounts to obliterate a particular post. It also shreds threaded posting by either removing all in a thread, or leaving gaping holes. More importantly, it puts the power to control what people see and don't see in the hands of those with the highest karma, creating the continued impression of cliques and cabals, all of which spawn the very trolls you don't want to see. Look at the group we currently have. Virtually all of them are rebelling against the existing power structure because they feel that Plastic is run by people they have nothing in common with, and people to whom they can't possibly catch in the Karma race. Without a cost for AI posting, no carefully crafted moderation scheme is even going to slow it down. I think we've already shown, over years of tinkering, that moderation does squat all to reduce trolling. Finally, for the people concerned about AI for new visitors, does anyone really think the sign-up procedure drives new voices away more than the fact that every thread on Plastic is now filled with vicious AI stalkers and comical, but wasteful "funny handles"? But I could be wrong.
--CaptainLiberal
- Long term lurker - sometimes poster...I have been on another board where there was a similar situation. Lots of outages, owner of the board communicated little, everyone freaking out, the vitrol of the Anonymous posting was getting insane. Large discussions on secession. Finally, the decision to eliminate the anonymous funcition significantly reduced the nastiness - didn't eliminate the sockpuppets, but it did slow it down and was a much nicer place to be around although some people missed the snark. That said, there was question about the community wanting some kind of Anonymous posting function for sensitive topics, etc. The solution was to create an ID for the RGA (regular going anonymous) - the password for the login ID was given the community at large. It didn't solve all the problems and some people use it to post shit about other people, but people jump on that pretty quick and it does require that you take the steps to log in, etc. A lot of AI posting I think is the result of people lacking a two second censor function before they post it. How this would work with the karma, I don't know, but maybe something similar could be incorporated. Maybe the RGA could have a time stamp of sorts or maybe in order to log into it, you have to log your user ID in and if it is abused, that user is 'banned' by the editors from using it for 5 days/10 days/forever. Maybe RGA gets no karma or you have to have 5 karma to post as an RGA. From a programming standpoint, I have no idea how complicated that might be but just adding my two cents...b2
- AI as it is conceived is also the only way to participate in a discussion and mod it at the same time. -- tomc
- Re: CaptainLiberal: Members (including AI lurkers) below a certain level of karma were unable to see the AI comments, thus they weren't deterred by the AI flamewars. That's one of the valuable functions of AI. I for one much preferred relegating the flamewars to AI, having seen other forums taken over by non-anonymous wars. Simply setting your filter to reject AI meant you didn't have to extend even the slight energy needed to ignore the stalking and stupidity. Sure, there were a few people who took advantage of AI to stalk and harass, but forcing them to create a login wouldn't change that. Free email addresses are everywhere. -- JimmyHavok
